I'd like to point out that landrun isn't crime, only some sort of bitch move ( and it feels nice that caBst takes care in restricting that ).
—Rosenmann

Actually it is and we mods can take a stand against it. It has been historically that way, It is just not a bannable offense. — caBastard 2012/07/04 22:59

offense

It's good word, I like it. And thank you once against you take a stand. — Rosenmann

I come here today not as a Kurwan President, an AN Secretariat, or any other form of Statesman who feels like getting dragged into these pointless squabbles of politics;

But today I stand before you as a resident of this realm and long time veteran of time, I've lived under 3 Realmkeepers, I've lived on 5 different continents, and witnessed the rise and fall of several great empires and events that have shaped our very history.

Yet on this day, we may be watching one of the most important votes to happen in over 75 years (minecraft time)!

For this vote is effectively a question of rather or not to accept fascism as the rule of law of this server when dealing with Soverign Nations, to pass this would effectively set a legal sanction for the Mods use powers no mods before them ever dreamth of having just half a century ago, that is the right to interfere in nearly every single unilateral matter of life in the realm, no matter how small or insignificant, simply because they do not agree or share the same vision of the people pursuing their dreams; leaving it only as a tool of abuse and harassment without any checks or safe guards except for a vote where half the members have conflicts of interests at best; discounting the ulterior motives ever present at these votes due to the histories and secret alliances the voters hold.

Only things that should be held to a vote like this are matters actually adversely effecting the majority realm directly, which require direct intervention on the behalf of the mods due to correct, otherwise every nation's soverignity is at stake, every nation's rights are held to be moot if simply voted away by a vote in a area that effects nobody, it is plainly stated every nation shall have the right to claim land, no where does it imply there are any limits to that except where it overlaps over nation's territory or used maliciously to block their expansion except in cases where it is a natural expansion, and based on the currently claimed Khattarian territory, none of this is unreasonable, with all the territory being under the 20:1 ratio I use as personal Reference.

No where is it show the Khattaian territory were claimed in a malicious way, with all the territory bordering other nations being natural for Khatten to claim, as such I can see this vote serves no purpose other than expunging all nations of their soverignty and right to claim land.

— Jyīoɯ̅ecκacs 2012/07/04 23:53

My argument is mostly based that the annexation of Tora ocurred mostly due to political intimidation rather than self determination like the Kattenites/Mongols claim. With a record of humiliating defeats against the Mongols and currently holding little to no population, the Torans had no choice but to accept obviously, because otherwise we could deduce what would have happened which is an agression war of incorporating the Toran territories. Tora already went to a Land Rule ruling because of its enourmous size and even if was cut (by me) I still held my stance that it was too big for them; but, I trusted they would expand, demographically speaking.

Moreover, the status of Tora was to be decided in another poll. The fact that the Mongols rushed to Minoriko as soon as he logged in while the issue was still pending only shows how interested they have been in annexing the Toran territories, and we already know their ways into it.

Either way, YugoTexas, that's why I'm submitting this into a vote. I myself would not do this on my own. It's up to us, the administration whether or not this happens, controversial or not.

In addition, I believe you have been unawared of the troubles the administration has been put with upon the series of wars waged by the Katten Khanate. It has resulted in a long series of bans, claims and complaints from many players over their aggressive attitude. Now, I don't oppose their right to wage wars, but there is a point when it becomes unbearable… so unbearable that even the moderator that supervised their last battle had to quit over how unorganized and against the established laws it went. So as you can see it does concern everyone.

And even if this poll or the other don't pass, and Tora officially becomes part of the Khanate, I have the biggest intention of submitting the Katten Khanate into a Land Run Court to reduce their current territories. This is completely legal, acceptable and it has been done several times. Shakomatic and the Breshikan Kingdom went throught it, MystiaLoreli and the Pan-Asian Meritocracy went through it, you and the Kurwan United Council went throught it, and the Torans recently went through it.

In conclusion, my intention was not extending the powers of the administration but to make an assessment of the Katten Khanate, its status, and its actions. As a matter of fact, I have in mind a series of reforms that would empower the players through the nation; unfortunately, with the current amount of players and the anemic activities of the nations, there is not enough motivation to carry them out. I hope you understand. — caBastard 2012/07/05 00:52

I don't see the issue with political intimidation, you used it for weeks to try and force Coenstad to ceed San Felipe, and the United Council used it against Greenland for 2 months to try and force a reunification.

Regardless both cases it failed to yeld results due to the other party digging in their heels and refusing, but with that aside, the first time a Nation folds and is annexed, must we really intervene? they surely knew of the conquenences of their decision when it was made, and nobody raised a fuss when Coenstad annexed Deseret or when Kurwa annexed Glo, should we retroactively erase those two events from the pages of history to make the Khattenian action in Tora unprecedented?

It is not like this was the only option, they could have simply choose to pay 64 iron to prevent any invasion, or signed a treaty with another nation to provide defense of them, if they choose simply to submit to Mongol rule, what is the issue at hand other than another feel good cause like Free Tibet?

To add, may I ask what relavence is there to this matter what their level of interest was in annexing Tora was? It seems common sense an 'Empire' would wish to incorperate other territories and settlements into it as it expands.

As for the matter regarding the mongol wars, this issue is completely disconnected from the question of territory, that instead falls under the purview of the International Rules of Engagement, as such, you should be bringing war crimes charges against the responsible military commanders under it, and if that fails, bring a vote to suspend their nation status for failure to abide by the rules of engagement until they come into compliance with it.

You bring up another issue, I don't recall the GAM or the Kurwan United Council ever having to ceed any territory through this 'Land Run Court' you speak of, all of our territorial disputes were settled in bilateral talks without mod intervention except for Alpha clarifying the legal position of Greenland in relation to Kurwa and G.A.M. which resulted in no territoral changes; and nether did the Breshikian Kingdom lose any land through this supposed court, if I recall it lost its territory through war with Kurwa, which evenutally all but eradicated the nation of Lakota from existance through annexation.

— Jyīoɯ̅ecκacs 2012/07/04 23:53

nobody raised a fuss when Coenstad annexed Deseret or when Kurwa annexed Glo
nobody raised a fuss
when Kurwa annexed Glo
nobody

Stopped reading there. — caBastard 2012/07/05 03:11

So basicly you are stating you have no arguement to justify this current vote in the face of history?
— Jyīoɯ̅ecκacs 2012/07/05 15:12
—
Didnt read any of this discussion but as long as theyre annexing territory legitimately then why interupt it. if someone wants to use their land and can show that khatten isnt using it then thats a different matter but if theyre legally annexing cities or empty space that no one was going to use anyway who cares -vlad

As for the accusation of us jumping minoriko we simply told the Toran leader what was happening and our wish to annex the city, they said they'd rather join the Khanate before GAM or Badface as we were geographically closer. They are willing to forget our past troubles and so are we, they want to become a fully autonomous state within the KK. I don't see the problem, everything is happening peacefully and we are offering to add to the city.
As for the land running claim I hardly see why you would even bring that up, we have 3 small desert biomes, and we chose them because they were small and close to other nations. While we lay claim to the entire server, in reality our actual area is quite small. We have around 25 members, some are banned and other inactive but that doesn't stop other nations from claiming huge areas, just look at GAM and Soviets, they claim entire continents then go out and claim a large jungle biome and they only have slightly more active members than us.
Just look at this: size_difference_in_nations.jpg
— green kitten 2012/07/05 08:30

The ca who proposed this is truely a major faggot and all of you should stop taking minecraft that serious. — g

SAGE
No, Yugo. It just means I stopped reading your post after that part. You're a delusional piece of shit. — caBastard 2012/07/05 17:12

So what of the fact there was no mod intervention when the United Council state annexed the Nothern territories and Glo, there was no intervention when Battkhortostan annexed the Sacred Grove, there was no mod intervention when I claimed the Antillies, there was no mod intervention when Coenstad annexed Deseret, there was no mod intervention when Kurwa annexed Lakota land?

The only time I recall there being intervention in relation to territoral claims was when K_Chris took over Evergreen, and when the United Council State declared their intent to annex Greenland; In both cases Alphabernd ruled to take no action as both were legitimate actions under the political system of this realm, which the mods had no business in meddling with.

So now after these history lesson; you put forth this vote for what reason? In the past this would have been left to the politicians to deal with, so why at this point in time must we intervene against the Khattanis when there was never Intervention against no other nation in the past for trying for territorial claims, especially when the adversely effected party consented?

And to add; This vote serves no purpose under the banner you fly of being against land-running, as the Khattani claims are modest since apart from Bannistan, their other two territories barely even emcompus a third of the biomes they are based in.

— Jyīoɯ̅ecκacs 2012/07/05 17:41

They are evil Badfacian imperialists. -Kovio

I dont even see the problem. Tora, instead of joining badfacia, which is on the other side of the map, we decided to join the much closer Khanate who also have a asian theme going. As for land running claims look at the huge islands the soviets control, uniting Tora with Katarbad will only be the orginial territory Tora was before Mongols came. - Minoriko

United Council state annexed the Nothern territories and Glo

There was.

There was no intervention when Battkhortostan annexed the Sacred Grove

Batt.x wasn't a nation, nobody cared about a shit tree.

There was no mod intervention when I claimed the Antillies

Nobody cared. Although v1ad and I were pretty much about to tell you to fuck off from there but didn't go forward with it.

There was no mod intervention when Coenstad annexed Deseret

Nobody cared

There was no mod intervention when Kurwa annexed Lakota land

We were the mods back then, so obviously nobody opposed retard.

The fact that we didn't get somewhere is because you will always have to come up shitting Berlin Walls of autist text that is pretty much demotivational for us. Whenever you stick your nose where you are not wanted around we back off because you are so incredibly annyoing that we have not the will power to stand you way of being you fucking fatso Texan spic.

But congratulations. If I actually have to close this poll in order to stop you from shitting this autist ocean, I will you fucking son of a bitch. I should have banned you when you griefed my house. — caBastard 2012/07/05 18:35 \
So why can't you fuck off then, I don't see how I'm the fucking problem when I write out a formal opinion on this matter and noting various flaws in your assertions, which you refuse a defense to simply stating you are ignoring everything it states after reading some historical precedents that are in conflict with this vote, then degrade into shouting insults and performing ad hominem attacks on me after I push you to provide a real response;

The Facts fail to show why the Katten situration is exceptional enough to require intervention on the basis of Territorial imbalance when their territory doesn't even equal half that of the Soviets, GAM, or Badfacia; with the historical precedents going against intervention based on their annexation of Tora leaving this vote passing producing no results other than to legitimise the constant meddling you attempt to do under your title of mod, which is why you have revolked it under the pretext of 'unbearable autism' to save face when you were the sole Aye on the poll; as well as to conveintetly place the blame on me for the vote failing in response to me calling you out on your failure to produce a actual arguement as to why this vote has any real purpose.

And to add, you did ban me when I greifed your house, which I did 3 times. — Jyīoɯ̅ecκacs 2012/07/05 19:02

nobody opposed kurwa annexing lakota land

IT WAS ALWAYS KURWAN LAND THAT LAKOTA WERE ALLOWED TO LIVE ON FEEL WITH IT BRESHIK FAGGOTS KRIEG ISLAND STRONG -vlad

GAM is 300 times larger than all Katteni territories combined

Katten accused of land running

yeah, nah… – mazznoff